Episode 3 - From Married to Meaningful: Building Partnership and Friendship After Divorce

From Married to Meaningful: Building Partnership and Friendship After Divorce

Some relationships aren’t meant to follow a traditional script—but that doesn’t make them any less sacred.

In episode 3 of the Builders of a Better World Podcast, “From Married to Meaningful: Building Partnership and Friendship After Divorce,” host Ashlieya invites her ex-husband, Neff, into an honest, tender, and sometimes hilarious conversation about how they rebuilt their connection after their marriage ended. Instead of cutting ties or staying stuck in old pain, they chose something far less common and far more courageous: to become chosen family and true partners in each other’s becoming.

This episode is for anyone who has ever wondered, “Is it possible to have a healthy, loving relationship with an ex?” or “What would it look like to intentionally build something new, instead of dragging the past into the present?”

What we talk about in this episode

Across this intimate conversation, Ashlieya and Neff trace the arc of their relationship—from dating, to marriage, to divorce, to the deep, platonic, sibling-like bond they now share.

They explore:

• Choosing each other as family, on purpose

  How they moved from “exes” to what Neff describes as “the best possible friend,” and why they both actively choose to see and treat each other as family—every single day.

  
  

• The power of clear, honest communication

  Neff shares how, even when things were hard, one of the constants was Ashlieya’s commitment to communicating what she wanted their dynamic to feel like, and how that clarity became an anchor as their relationship evolved.

  
  

• Intention as the quiet superpower in relationships

  Together, they come back again and again to intentionality: consciously deciding to be supportive, respectful, and caring; choosing to bring out the best in each other; and putting energy into the shared goal of a healthy, harmonious connection.

  
  

• Forgiveness as a spiritual and emotional skill

  Ashlieya talks candidly about surrendering old resentment, owning the ways her younger self sometimes showed up from fear and trauma, and learning to forgive fully—so that unconditional love could actually have space to grow between them.

  
  

• Home as sanctuary and energetic responsibility

  From a childhood of unrest to a fiercely protected sanctuary, Ashlieya shares how her relationship with Neff helped her understand the importance of cultivating peace at home, holding herself accountable for her own energy, and committing to an environment that supports healing and growth.

  
  

• Growth, timing, and the “right” form of relationship

  They reflect on why their marriage didn’t work at the time, how much emotional maturing they both needed, and why today they can say: we could be married now—but what we actually have is something even more aligned with who we’ve each become.

Why this conversation matters

In a world that often tells us there are only two options after a breakup—stay enemies or stay distant—this episode offers a third way: relationships that evolve, soften, and deepen over time.

You’ll hear:

• How two people can honor their history while refusing to stay defined by their worst moments.

  
  

• What it looks like to recognize the value someone brings to your life and consciously protect that bond, even through conflict.

  
  

• The quiet, daily choices that turn “We’re done” into “We’re different now, but still devoted to each other’s flourishing.”

  
  

At its core, this is a story about building a better world one relationship at a time—by practicing forgiveness, embodying unconditional love, and choosing to be a safe, growth-inspiring presence in each other’s lives.

A question for you: Do you have a “Neff”?

Throughout the episode, you’ll hear a recurring invitation: Do you have a Neff in your life? And just as importantly: How could you become someone else’s Neff?

As you listen, you might find yourself asking:

• Who in my life do I deeply value, even if our relationship doesn’t fit a conventional mold?

  
  

• What would it look like to show up for them with more intention, honesty, and forgiveness?

  
  

• Where am I being invited to grow, so that my presence is a sanctuary for the people I love?

  
  

If you don’t have a “Neff” yet, maybe this episode is your nudge to start becoming that kind of person—for yourself and for others.

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Episode 3 - From Married to MeaningfulBuilders of a Better World

31:56

Transcript

Welcome to Builders of a Better World Podcast, a space for depth, clarity, and honest conversation, where presence matters more than performance. Let’s begin.

Ashlieya: Welcome back to another fantastic episode on Builders of a Better World. My name is Ashlieya. I promise not to sing every time I introduce an episode. We have an untitled episode for you today—we have yet to discover a title. It is an episode that is going to be in reference to something really significant to me. ​

So, in launching Ashlieya into the world, I have to introduce someone that I feel very proud to call my ex-husband. It sounds juicy already, does it not? Yeah… really good.

However, he’s become what I would say is more like a brother to me. ​

Neff: Brother, yeah, sure. ​

Ashlieya: He’s like my bro. It’s really hard to define because I think, conventionally, it’s unique. I don’t think that there are a lot of relationship dynamics that emulate what we’ve become. We’ve been a married couple and, you know, obviously all that precedes that. So we dated, all the things, found each other, had a really beautiful friendship, and then it’s evolved in a way that I am, for one, just really grateful for. ​

So, be there a way of describing it with language or not, I’m just really fucking appreciative of it. And it’s something that every single morning when I wake up, I say, “Thank God I have this.” And I say, “Thank God I have you.” ​

Neff: I feel exactly the same way.

Ashlieya: That’s real. 

Neff: Yeah. 

Ashlieya: So we need to talk about that. 

Neff: Sure.

Ashlieya: Because the purpose of this—Builders of a Better World—you’re something that builds a beautiful world for me. ​

Neff: Stop. ​

Ashlieya: Right? And you and I have this collective mission. We are one and the same to contribute to that which is outside of ourselves, in the name of service, in the name of building a better world. So we have that likeness about us and we have that in common. ​

But it could be inspiring to talk about our story and to talk about how we’ve become what we’ve become. And if people can resonate, I would love to hear about it. So if you have a Neff in your life, I want to know. So comment, yes, let me know if you have a Neff. The world needs a Neff, I’m gonna tell you. And you’ll understand why as we get further into this episode. But yeah, you’re just somebody really important to me. And it wasn’t always so… loving. ​

Neff: No, but— ​

Ashlieya: It was loving, we always had love. ​

Neff: Yeah, yeah. ​

Ashlieya: But… so, do you have a way of describing us? How do you define what we are now? Do you have a way of articulating it? ​

Neff: Well, I mean, like you said, you know, our journey together has been interesting, and wonderful, and sometimes frustrating, but I think that that’s every relationship out there. We had to find out what really worked for the two of us as far as our dynamic is concerned. And, you know, it wasn’t married–a married dynamic; it was something a little different. ​

I can honestly say that I have such a great love and appreciation for you, no question about that. So putting “brother–sister” to it is, I think, a good way—the best possible friend. You know, if you want to say we choose the family that we want, I would say that I definitely choose you as family, and I know you choose me as well. And it is a really, really wonderful relationship. And again, just like you said, I’m also extremely grateful that you are a part of my life. ​

For a lot of reasons, but you do bring the best out of me and that means so much to me. ​

Ashlieya: I have topics in mind that I would like to discuss, but I want to ask a question that just kind of piggybacks on what you just said. And my question is: do you feel like that is a choice? You’ve made a declaration, which I humbly and wholeheartedly just appreciate, but you’ve made the statement that I contribute to bringing out the best in you. ​

I’m wondering—not for the sake of trying to lead you to brag about me specifically, that’s not what I’m trying to get at, I’m not trying to invoke this conversation about how awesome I am—it’s more so: why do you think that is, and do you think that’s a choice? Like, how much command over that do you think you have? Is it something that, is it a power you’ve given someone? Is it something that you decided? Like, how has that come to your awareness? I just asked you ten questions in one question. ​

Neff: It’s actually a really good question, though. And addressing the changes in our dynamic, what I would say, you know, when we were a married couple, even when things weren’t awesome, one of the things that you did—and again, I will brag on you—one of the things you did is that you always were very honest and clear. You were a very good communicator, and you were very honest and clear about what you wanted out of the relationship, what you kind of hoped that we would be like, and how you hoped that we would respond to each other. ​

And I’ve been in a few relationships, and you were the first person to do that—to really be very clear, to have a clear understanding of what you kind of wanted the relationship to be like. And because, of course, I cared about who you are as a person and who you were in my life, then those things became important to me as well. And that is a choice. It is a choice to go, “Well, I care about this person, so if they have an idea of how they want our dynamic to be, then I also care about it as well,” if that makes sense. ​

And that never stopped being the case. So as our relationship has progressed and changed, I still care about you as a person. I still care about our dynamic and how our relationship is—whether it is friendship, whether it is family, no matter what it is. I still care about you as somebody who’s a part of my life. And I do think that that is a choice and a decision. ​

And because I also have an idea of how I want our relationship to be, and I feel like I’ve also shared that, and you’ve definitely shown that you care about how I feel about things, it makes a very harmonious relationship. It makes a really healthy relationship because we’re both listening to each other, we’re both caring about each other’s feelings and opinions and situations, and we’re both trying to make the situation a better situation. ​

Ultimately, it’s that idea that if we both put energy into the same goal—as far as having a healthy, happy relationship—then things become quite easy. ​

Ashlieya: I agree, yes, to everything that you said. When people ask me—because I get questions all the time, which is why I wanted to do this episode—if you’re going to get to know Ashlieya, well, Neff is a huge part of my world and my life. And people are always so inquisitive about how it “works,” quote-unquote. You know, and how we navigate this newfound kind of a dynamic where you’re still such a significant part of my life. ​

There’s no romance—depending on how you define romance. You know, conventionally speaking, by most societal standards, there’s no romantic… it’s a pure, platonic love. But the thing that I share is that—and forgive the polarizing verbiage—but it’s like, well, it helps that we’re both good people. ​

Not to—and again, I want to shy away from the idea of saying a person is bad and a person is good; we’re not in that state—but you have pure intention and I have pure intention. And so, if there was a way I had to describe, with regards to “how does it work,” I would say that is the biggest part of it. Yes, you can go into the specifics—well, we mutually respect each other, and all those things, which is very important and lovely—but I think at the end of the day, you purposefully behave in a way that you think contributes to the betterment of my life, and likewise, vice versa. ​

You know, it comes down to, I think, a very intentional practice of “What am I being for this person?” And it gets really easy to navigate in a way that just aligns with, “I’m going to be love, I’m going to be support, I’m going to be forgiving, I’m going to be understanding.” ​

One of the things that I really wanted to talk about—it’s been a really important lesson for me and it’s contributed to allowing us to be as we are today—and that component is forgiveness. I had to get really honest and very… the word that’s coming to mind is “surrender.” I had to surrender to any sort of withholding of contempt that I may have had. I had to really let that go. I had to wholeheartedly forgive you. ​

And I’m so grateful that I learned how to do that. Because once you learn how to do it, you can do it. You’re like, “Oh.” And it’s not always easy, but I think exercising forgiveness is arguably a skill set. It’s arguably something that hopefully gets easier and better over time. ​

And when you step into the idea of, you know, what does it mean to unconditionally love and unconditionally be loved—us, as we have been originally to what we are now—is my story in learning forgiveness and unconditional love. And I cannot say how grateful I am for that. There are no words to articulate how profoundly transformative that experience has been for me. ​

And again, I’ll say it as many times as I feel called to: when I do my gratitude practice in the morning, and I list the things that I am most grateful for, the thought of you, Neff, it embodies all of that for me. All of those really brilliant, transformative, very empowering, transformative moments. It’s incredible. ​

So I think that with the understanding of forgiveness and the pursuit of receiving and giving unconditional love is why we are who we are to each other. It’s a gift. It’s a miracle, in my opinion. And I—it's a wish… I feel like I don’t want to project my desires onto anyone else, but if I could wish things for people, I mean, talk about companionship and support. We nail it. ​

It’s not that I don’t hate you on occasion. And I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that because I get mad at you. It’s not—it’s not—every relationship takes intention, and that’s what we’re talking about. 

Neff: Yeah.​

Ashlieya: There are moments where you’re uncomfortable when I’m angry with you. ​

Neff: Oh, 100 percent. ​

Ashlieya: And I don’t like being angry at you. But, you know, that’s just an inevitable thing that’s gonna be our journey for the rest of this life. 

Neff: Yeah.

Ashlieya: It’s constantly going to take a semblance of nurturing and investing, and I just keep coming back to the word “intention.” I don’t know a better one to use as a phrase, but it takes purpose. You have to exercise an act of purpose, and that purpose must be to ultimately care about the other person. But yeah, that’s hard for some people. That’s not easy for some people. ​

Neff: Well, I think you said it really well. The idea that we have unconditional love for each other starts with finding value in each other first. You know, and I think we both recognize the value of each other in each other’s lives. And yes, unconditional love is a choice. Being intentionally caring and thoughtful and putting positive energy into our relationship is a choice. All of that becomes a choice. ​

But to me, the factor that makes everything easy is the “why,” and that is that we bring value to each other’s lives. 

Ashlieya: But do we choose—do you—I want to go back to this. Do you think that it’s something that can be turned on and off? ​

Neff: Oh, of course. ​

Ashlieya: Okay. 

Neff: Because there was a reason that we did get married in the first place, right? There is a reason why we got married in the first place. ​

Ashlieya: Insurance and citizenship. Just kidding. ​Just kidding. ​

Neff: All right, so before that—I’m just kidding. But ultimately, when we first did start to associate with each other, there was a reason that we were attracted to each other. There was a reason that we wanted to be around each other. There were reasons. ​

And just because we started realizing that the relationship of marriage did not work for us did not change the fact that there were reasons why we found each other “attractive”—I’m gonna put that in quotes—in the sense that we were attracted to each other. ​

Somebody—I don’t even remember the person—but somebody I’ve been listening to talked about the fact that the reason that sometimes we’re attracted to people is because we’re attracted to who we are around that person. And I think that that was a big deal for me, is that as we got to know each other, I think I found the best parts of myself, and I became more aware of some of the parts that I wanted to change. ​

And you talk about your journey and the fact that you have a growth mindset and you’re always aspiring to be a better human being as you go through the journey called life—that has been a huge thing for me as well. Seeing that example and being around that is wonderful. And I feel like I, again, am becoming a better human being by doing so. ​

Which hopefully contributes to, of course, your betterment, in the sense that like-minded people help each other to progress; they encourage each other to progress, whether it be through example or through words of encouragement, it doesn’t really matter. Ultimately, like I said, there were things about our relationship that had huge amounts of value, and I chose to put energy into that. I think you chose to put energy into that. ​

So when it comes down to it, when you think about the people who are in your life and you can have that gratitude—gratitude’s such a big thing—about what that person brings to your existence, and you can be aware of that—awareness and intentionality (I don’t even know if that’s a word)—but awareness of being intentional with that information, with that understanding, with that feeling cultivates such a greater, positive environment for relationships to progress and to grow. ​

And yes, it does take a choice. It does take a decision to go, “I can see the value in what this brings to my life, so I’m going to be intentional about how I deal with that.” Even when we are upset at each other, both of us recognize that the relationship has value. We can be mad at each other, we can be upset at each other. There are things that I do that bother you and there are things that you do that bother me. And in the end, it doesn’t change the dynamic of us both caring about each other or us both being there for each other in ways that, like you said, not a lot of people are. ​

Ashlieya: I love that. I want to talk about something that I think—I’m just, again, I’m feeling called to speak about it, so I’m going to speak about it. You know, you said something earlier, like, “We weren’t meant to be married to each other,” or, “We’re not…”—forgive me for reiterating—but it was almost as though you alluded to a fate, like, “We’re not meant to be married.” ​

Neff: Sure. ​

Ashlieya: And whether that’s how you intended it or not, that’s just how I heard it. And I want to say that I feel like we could be married if we wanted to. With respect—my husband now, love you so much. I’m in no way disrespecting the commitment and the vow that I’m in now. But I think that there’s a maturity that has taken place over—I’ll just speak for myself, and you can disagree, it’s not gonna hurt my ego, you can be like, “No, I don’t want to marry you.” That’s fine. “I don’t want to be married to you anymore.” Totally fine, that’s all good. I swear, honestly. ​

For me, at the time—and I’ve spoken about this before, but I think if this resonates with anyone, there’s value in sharing it—you were the biggest blessing in my life in the sense that you gave me permission to be whatever I wanted to be. And that’s fantastic, that’s incredible. It gave me a beautiful sense of acceptance and safety, which was what I needed at that time. ​

And in my just very young way of moving through the world—I found it difficult to hold myself accountable for certain actions and behaviors because I was so held by you in my trauma, in my fear, in my temper. I knew that I could get away with things that, arguably, just were not me being my highest self. And you were going to love me anyway. And you do, right? It’s proof to this day, and that’s the most beautiful gift. ​

But in my—I’m going to call it an immature way of moving through the world—you know, we married when I was 23. And who cares about chronological age, get married whenever you want; it’s not to say—but emotionally, I was young. And emotionally, I had to figure out what my highest and best self felt like, looked like, spoke like, all of these wonderful things. And in being with you, I unfortunately, in some way, found it enabling. ​

Because I was given such freedom over my untamed wildness—which has so much value and I’m so grateful for it—I was in a space where I, unfortunately, couldn’t hold myself accountable enough to not be a terror sometimes. Does that make sense? Am I making—like, my temper was so forgiven by you that I unfortunately didn’t have the inner incentive to not have a temper. ​

And now I have inner incentive. Now I have my inner “why.” Now I have my inner understanding of who I need and want to be, and I’ve gotten very comfortable with that which I aspire to achieve. Whereas at the time, I knew I could get away with not treating you well, or not behaving my best, and you were going to be there and love me and look at me adoringly either way. And it was… I just want to bring attention to that because it’s something that I look back on, and I’m so glad that I know what that feels like—to be my ugliest and still be called beautiful. That is incredible to have experienced and to know what that feels like. ​

So anyway, now I feel like we could be married and we could be just fine. For the record. ​

Neff: Well, I think you said it perfectly, and that is time. So at that specific time, you were in whatever place you were on this journey, and I was in whatever place I was on the journey. And the reality was that during that specific time, we both had a lot of growing up to do. ​

And it’s funny because, of course, I’m older than you are, but I still had a lot of growing up to do. And what I think—and this is where it gets really powerful for both of us, and I think this is absolutely true—is we needed to meet each other then and have that experience so that we could both grow. But you also needed to have your experience with Michael. ​

Ashlieya: Right, of course. ​

Neff: Do you know what I mean? And that’s the reality. You needed that to grow into the next phase of your existence and to have the progression that you’ve had. And I actually needed to be single, which is interesting. ​

Ashlieya: That’s what I’m saying. Yes, again, with respect to the journey and the universe and the fate and the way that things needed to divinely happen, I’m 100 percent not going against that whatsoever. ​

Neff: No, and I think that what you’re saying is 100 percent right, that as we both become more mature, and we both become more emotionally mature, the reality is that we could. We could be good partners for each other. ​

Ashlieya: Well, we are. We are partners for each other. ​

Neff: Yeah, that’s right, that’s exactly right. And I actually have found great—I'm very grateful that you both, Michael and you, have allowed me to be a part of your family, in a sense. Because, again, the environment that you create around you is one that aids in self-development, self-improvement, healthy lifestyle, all of the things that I want in my life. That has so much value, and I do continue—no matter what happens—I do continue to desire that and want that and hope that I have that in my life. ​One hundred percent.

Ashlieya: My home is my sanctuary. I say it. That is one thing I do very often preach about. It’s really important that you are continuously aspiring to be your best self, both at home as well as out into the world. ​

My home, for me personally, is my safe space. It’s a place for rejuvenation, a place for rest, a place for celebration, a place for love. It’s a safe space. And in my growing and maturing and developing all those things, I really found the significance in building that and in having that. ​

And it’s a rule for me in this life—and it has been for some time now—it’s like: you must contribute to the safety of this space, being at home. It’s not a place where you can fly off the handle and let your, you know, whatever wild, untamed aspect of you… you can’t just let it go, just because you’re at home and in the safety of people who are obligated, we’ll say, to “unconditionally love you.” ​

But again, the experience with you has taught me that. It’s taught me how to have that and the value of that. And now, we’re in my sanctuary. This is the room that is called The Sanctuary in my house. And it’s a very important space for me. It’s a sacred space. ​

And, you know, I went from home being the opposite of that, growing up. And then, like you do, you become a contributor to that degree of unrest—we’ll just say—I was a contributor to the unrest. And now I see the value in refusing anything other than peace when you’re at home. ​

Neff: Yeah, I think both of us have come to really appreciate energy and what that means in your life and how it does influence you in many different ways, whether it be your health or even just how you’re able to cope throughout your day. I think that the idea that gratitude and positive vibes are just really important to have around. And I think that’s something that you bring all the time. 

Ashlieya: Oh, thank you.

Neff: So yeah, that’s really… ​

Ashlieya: We’re here to build a better world. And you help me do that. So you have, yeah, my best friend, huge confidant in this life. I know I could call you if I needed to bury a body. ​

Neff: Absolutely. ​*laughs*

Ashlieya: And that is—yeah, that’s when you know you’re winning in this life. So again, from the bottom of my heart, just thank you. In all my gratitude, I’m very, very, very appreciative of all that you are. ​

So, do you have a Neff in your life? If you don’t, you should get one. I’ll lease him to you, very reasonably. He’s a good guy to have around. ​

And how could you contribute to being someone else’s Neff? Yeah, let me know. Let me know, because that’s what we do: we are here to build a better world. ​

Neff: That is a very good question. ​

Ashlieya: Yeah.

Neff: That is the best question. If you want a Neff, be a Neff. 

Ashlieya: Yes, thank you so much. Let me know if you have a Neff in your life, I’m very curious. So reach out to me on Instagram, @ashlieya_, A-S-H-L-I-E-Y-A. @buildersofabetterworld, we have an Instagram page. We’re also on YouTube. ​

So, open invitation: reach out, let me know. 

Thank you for joining us here at the Builders of a Better World podcast. Please share, subscribe, comment, and be sure to pass this episode along for anyone who may need it. See you next time. ​