Episode 6 - Teaching Emotional Literacy Through the Arts: Thriving Kids, Grounded Adults

What if learning to feel, name, and navigate our emotions could be as natural as learning a dance routine or stepping onto a stage? In the latest episode of the Builders of a Better World podcast, Ashlieya and Neff explore how emotional literacy, the arts, and nervous system mastery come together to help both kids and adults truly thrive.

This conversation goes deep into purpose, radical accountability, and what it really means to “build a better world from within”—starting with our own inner state.

In this episode, we explore

• Why emotional literacy is more than “being nice” or following social rules—and why embodiment matters.

  
  

• How visual and performing arts give kids and adults a safe space to explore, express, and alchemize big feelings.
  

• The difference between social–emotional learning (SEL) as it’s often implemented in schools and a truly embodied emotional literacy practice.
  

• Radical accountability: shifting from “life is happening to me” to “I am responsible for my meaning‑making and responses.”
  

• The role of nervous system mastery in speaking, teaching, performing, and simply moving through the world with clarity and grounded confidence.
  

• Why authentic, child‑level connection (play, presence, and respect) matters more than scripts when guiding kids.
  

• How Builders of a Better World and Dance Masters are weaving emotional literacy into arts‑based programs for homeschoolers and school communities.

Why this conversation matters now

For more than 20 years, SEL has been present in schools, but real emotional literacy is still rarely modeled consistently by adults or embedded into school culture. At the same time, research and practice continue to affirm that arts‑rich environments help students build self‑awareness, empathy, and emotional regulation.

This episode invites educators, parents, creators, and community builders to consider a different approach: centering inner coherence, embodiment, and accountability—and using the arts as a living laboratory where kids and adults can practice being their most authentic selves.

Listen to the episode

Tune in to “Teaching Emotional Literacy Through the Arts: Thriving Kids, Regulated Adults” to hear:

• Real‑life stories from the classroom, the studio, and after‑school programs
  

• How Ashlieya’s I Thrive series grew out of her “Big Book” and her own healing journey
  

• Practical reflections you can bring into your family, classroom, studio, or organization right away

Due to length and size limitations, this episode is not available ad-free. Listen through our podcast host below.

Explore next steps

• Visit I Thrive Academy to explore workshops, courses, and the I Thrive ebook series on nervous system mastery, solo travel, emotional literacy, and more.
  

• Learn more about Builders of a Better World and our arts‑based emotional literacy programs for kids, adults, and families.
  

• Share this episode with an educator, homeschool family, or arts leader who cares about raising emotionally literate, creatively expressed humans.

Transcript:

Ashlieya: Okay, shall we hit it?

Let’s do it.

Welcome back to Builders of a Better World podcast. We have the mission, purpose, and intention to build a better world, contribute to all things positively, and yeah, that’s what we do, understanding and knowing that building a better world is an inward to outward process. You have to build the best you to build the best world.

And that’s us. That’s our mission and purpose: speak true with love and peace. We have a vow of unwavering authenticity and honesty on this podcast. So we, any guest, including Mr. King Nefftune who is joining us today…

I love you, Neff.

Neff: I love you too. 

Ashlieya: Very important human in my life. You are a very dear, very close friend, also my ex-husband, and we’ve worked together for, oh, for… It’s been about 10 years now.

Over 10 years now.

Neff: Over 10 years, yeah.

Ashlieya: Oh yeah. Wow. Time flies.

Neff: I know, it does go by really quickly. 

Ashlieya: It really, really does. And now he’s my employee.

Neff: I am, absolutely.

Ashlieya: And you have been for a while.

Neff: Yes.

Ashlieya: And it’s going great. I highly recommend if you have an ex-husband, no, just kidding—

Neff: Hire him.

Ashlieya: Probably not, actually. I think I lucked out in the world of ex-husbands.

Neff: And I lucked out too.

Ashlieya: Yes. 

Neff: I have a great employee… errr, employer.

Ashlieya: I’m your employer. 

Neff: Oh, whatever. I have a great employer. 

Ashlieya: And we have a beautiful friendship.

Neff: Yes.

Ashlieya: Which we’ve spoken about on previous episodes.

Neff: Absolutely.

Ashlieya: Nonetheless, we mutually take a vow of authenticity to speak true, and that’s how we navigate these conversations.

So, without further ado, I have to get something out of the way for this episode. Kind of a big deal. Kind of a big deal.

So, those that follow me in my progress, my journey, my little livelihood that is my existence—which really extends throughout every aspect of my life, let’s be honest. There’s not much work–life balance when you’re living your purpose, and we’ll talk about that later on in the episode.

Out of the way, I need to declare definitively: we know I’ve been working on this book, and I’ve been calling it the Big Book.

Neff: The Big Book, yes.

Ashlieya: ’Cause it’s continuously morphing, transforming, and expanding, and becoming all sorts of what I find to be really profound greatness. For me. For me.

And I had a very specific intention. I really wanted to abstain, essentially, from indicating or using the word “spiritual” throughout the book. Because I was… well, for one, I’m a trained therapist. That was a previous profession of mine, and I speak with such intention to not use polarizing language. And it’s a part of what makes someone a good therapist, I think, to some extent—although my perspective has shifted in that; different conversation.

I didn’t want to reduce my potential for those that would be called to read the book and find the information of value, if the word “spiritual” or the concept of spirituality didn’t resonate with them. I was really trying to draft something that could be for everyone, because I do feel like it does benefit everyone, and I don’t mean that arrogantly.

But I think there’s always something for everyone if you choose to allow yourself to be open and receive the resonance. We’re all the same, we are all interconnected, and I need to come out of the spiritual closet, because I am spiritual AF, so, so totally, completely, with every fiber of my being. To omit that, to negate speaking about it, is a real disservice in being able to articulate why I do what I do and feel the way I feel and think the way I think.

So I need to get more comfortable declaring that I’m more a… we’ll just say, the embodiment of a spiritual human. I don’t identify as a teacher. That’s not a word that resonates with me anymore. I’m a creator, I’m a builder, I’m here to be a positive influence. And I have a lot of thoughts and feelings and beliefs pertaining to life and how this world works.

And in order to honor that piece of myself really wholeheartedly and authentically, it needs to be acknowledged that I attribute my ability to thrive in this world as a human to my spiritual beliefs, practices, and ideology.

Neff: That’s awesome.

Ashlieya: I needed to say that.

Neff: Yeah, that’s awesome. 

Ashlieya: We needed to get that out of the way.

Yeah. I love science. I’m a huge science person. That doesn’t—there’s nothing that contradicts that. In my opinion, science explains spirituality, and I really hope that the skeptics of the world can one day find themselves open to being able to investigate that for themselves, because it really is profoundly, profoundly, undeniably true.

Neff: Yeah, I think that if you do have an open mind and are willing to look at it in a very honest way, then you would say, science, spirituality, they go hand in hand. 

Ashlieya: They complement each other. They really do.

Neff: Absolutely. Yeah.

Ashlieya: They really, really do.

Neff: Absolutely.

Ashlieya: Thank you for allowing me to have that moment. I needed to get that out there.

Referencing the Big Book, I’ve been speaking a lot about this. I’ve taken all that would make the Big Book way too big and divided it up into a series of smaller e‑books that I’m calling my I Thrive series. I have three finished and out now. The first was “Nervous System Mastery,” the second was “Art of Solo Travel,” and the third is “Art as the Way to Emotional Literacy.”

There are 13 books so far in the ongoing series, so stay tuned and please follow that journey, because there’s a lot of really excellent information and some really, really excellent topics, most of which will be discussed here on the podcast.

We have a really wonderful website that now hosts all of our workshops and course offerings that pertain to the I Thrive series, and it is called the I Thrive Academy, and you can find us at ithriveacademy.com, I as in I, not eyeball.

Yes. So, very good.

So speaking of that, I, we—you and I—are considering ourselves self‑declared the newfound great… *laughing* philosophers…

Neff: Oh no.

Ashlieya: …of our time.

Neff: Yeah. 

Ashlieya: So, I need… it needs to be said. 

Neff: Now I almost regret saying that. No, I’m just kidding.

Ashlieya: We brilliantly, brilliantly, like just elevating conversation, and it’s exceptionally healing for me to just talk to you about things.

Neff: Absolutely.

Ashlieya: So having you on the podcast is really just what makes sense. He’ll be trickled in throughout, because we have such excellent conversation, and you are such a significant part in how I tend to emotionally and mentally sort through some of what I experience in my life—just different thoughts, feelings, concepts. So many things that I write about, you and I discussed at one time or another.

And so that’s why you’re here today, is to allow people in. As we constantly talk about, “We need to have a podcast. People should be listening to this conversation. There’s value here to share.”

So, we were talking earlier. I’m just going to throw out the word “purpose.”

Neff: Okay.

Ashlieya: The I Thrive series, my speaking that I do, Builders of a Better World, that’s all an extension of my purpose. Everything I do every day—being an actress, a storyteller, a creative, someone that has opened up and allowed myself to share about how I choose to move through the world, which is essentially what the I Thrive series is—it’s something I intentionally embody every single moment of every day.

And it helps me make decisions. It helps me understand how to really feel that sense of fulfillment and accomplishment. It gives me an excellent sense of direction with regards to navigating, prioritizing relationships versus playtime versus “quote unquote” work, which I don’t really do as much of anymore, which is amazing. And I think when you really start to step into your purpose, it does feel more like that.

What’s your thought? Purpose.

Neff: That’s great. It’s interesting. I didn’t expect you to use that word, but—

Ashlieya: Gotta keep you on your toes, man.

Neff: No, thank you. 

Ashlieya: We’re not rehearsed here.

Neff: No, not at all. I wasn’t expecting you to use that word, but it’s interesting because it really does tie everything in together that we have been talking about in the last couple of days. We did have a wonderful conversation about the emotional… sorry, tell me the title again, I apologize.

Ashlieya: “Art as the Way to Emotional Literacy.”

Neff: “Art as the Way to Emotional Literacy.”

We did have a wonderful conversation about that, and I actually want to quote something. Can I quote something?

Ashlieya: The book?

Neff: Oh yeah.

Ashlieya: Oh my gosh, yes.

Neff: Yeah, yeah. I want to quote something. So I have it here. And it says, “Simply being the best version of you serves any situation better than any outwardly projected strategy ever could.”

And so we had talked about it, and it was resonating, but it didn’t resonate quite as much until I read that. And it’s interesting because, like we were talking about, it seems that all the strategies that people are developing for, you know, whatever, higher living, you know, healthy living, whatever it might be, they’re strategies that are based on adapting to a situation that happens.

So I get into one situation and I need to adapt. I get into another situation and I need to adapt. And when you actually, like you said—you used the word “purpose”—when you actually find what your purpose is, and everybody’s purpose is obviously going to be different. But when you actually find what your purpose is, then you are going from the inside. You’re finding out that core value, I guess, the core value system.

And it is influencing the way that you actually handle yourself in those situations. And it stops being about having to adapt to every little thing that happens to you. You’re not reactive anymore. And just thinking about that, it’s like, it seems so exhausting to think that I have to, like, you know, be on my toes, reacting. And it seems so much easier to get to a point where you’re like, “This is how I navigate my life, by finding my purpose”—using that word, defining your purpose, right?

Navigating life seems so much, so much easier because I’m now… I’ve already made up my mind. Do you know what I mean? Before the situation happens, it’s already there. Then the situation happens, and I just am my best self in that moment.

Ashlieya: Exactly. I’m making a note to specifically write something—it doesn’t have to be in the I Thrive series—but I’m going to put together something about finding your purpose. Because I really think there’s a roadmap to that.

Neff: Right.

Ashlieya: And I’m sure it’s been done, but nonetheless, you just inspired me, so I’m going to do that.

Neff: Well, and I think that that’s, I mean, truly, most of our conversations. I love what you’re doing. I love what you’re writing about. You know, you talk about the Big Book, and, you know, we’ve had so many awesome conversations just about that fact that, you know, becoming authentic, being true to yourself, and what that would do to influence the rest of your life.

Ashlieya: Exactly.

Neff: And we could, I personally think, we could take all of those situations that are challenges that we have in our life—anxieties, stresses that we have—and we can handle them easier. We can, you know, some of them disappear completely, honestly, by becoming… you know, finding your purpose, gaining a sense of what your values are, what your true self is, and becoming authentic with that.

Ashlieya: I have a book in the I Thrive series. It’s called “Core Values,” and I define what core values are. And it is my experience and my personal truth that a lot of the ways they’re spoken about is very superficial, and it’s not to the core of anything, let alone who you are and how you choose to allow that to define your identity, which is what I personally think your core values should do.

So stay tuned for that book, because that’s fantastic.

I want to put a little context around the quote that you so kindly read from my book. Thank you.

Neff: No, it meant a lot to me, actually.

Ashlieya: It’s really nice when people read my stuff, and to hear someone else speak it aloud, to hear it in someone else’s voice is like… I mean, I get really emotional. It’s really wonderful.

So you read just a sentence, just a statement from “Art as the Way to Emotional Literacy,” which is the book I most recently finished. And I want to just start out by saying that that whole… the intention for that book was originally meant to be read by administrators in school systems.

Because my previous experience—I mean, it started from the time I was really young, teaching dance. I started as a dance teacher when I was 13. And I taught, you know, all throughout my teenage years, all throughout university, and I taught kids that were low socioeconomic. I taught kids that were developmentally disabled. I mean, that was what we did, right? You are the performer, you are the dancer, you are going to shows and doing all the things, and I was touring, and then in addition to that, I was teaching.

And I started teaching for a nonprofit when I was 19, and we taught dance for an after‑school program. And then, several years ago, you and I began the venture of wanting to bring enrichment through different performing arts modalities to low socioeconomically disadvantaged school districts.

And for those of you that don’t know much about the public school system, there is a method for teaching called social–emotional learning, and it is intended to help kids essentially exercise different aspects of emotional literacy so that they can perform better in school, have healthier relationships, be able to more adequately articulate their own feelings, and all of that good stuff.

And it was my experience that that wasn’t being delivered as optimally as it could. And so I wrote a book about it, and that’s what this book was originally intended to be.

It has become more than that, as everything that I do now seems to, which I’m very grateful for. It’s really wonderful.

I want to read my definition of emotional literacy, just for some context, and then if it feels right, I’ll read some of the preface to the book.

“Emotional literacy, as I define and teach it, is an internal discipline of truth, coherence, and embodiment—emphasis on the word “embodiment.” It is not a strategy for navigating others, but rather a practice of accurately knowing oneself. In my framework, literacy employs fluency: the ability to read, interpret, and regulate one’s own emotional, perceptual, and physiological states with precision.

“It positions the internal state as the primary compass—not something reactive to environment, but something sovereign over it. Decisions, actions, and intentions originate from this calibrated inner orientation, where alignment replaces analysis, and embodiment replaces performance. The aim is not to do the right thing, but to be in a state from which right actions emerge naturally. This is where information becomes lived, as it’s felt, integrated, and expressed without distortion,” which is also wisdom, in my opinion. It’s the embodiment of knowledge.

“Emotional literacy is the cultivation of self‑honesty at depth, a continuous attunement to one’s internal reality that produces clarity, integrity, and congruence. From this coherence, impact is not engineered, it is inevitable.”

That’s the whole understanding behind the mission to Builders of a Better World. It’s understanding that you building the best version of you is what will ultimately contribute to building the best world. We orient ourselves from the position of purely being internal, focusing on that which we are feeling, thinking, being, breathing—what our intention is, what our current state is—understanding how to partner with our physiology.

Ah, please, teach that better to kids. If I don’t get there, someone beats me to it, please help kids.

It’s understanding that if we focus purely on the internal, and less on strategically formed systems and methodologies that are designed to have an external perception—have an external view of what is happening with an emphasis on trying to adjust the external, which is what so many emotional‑intelligence‑based programs do…

Empathy is very important. Empathy is not something negated when I speak about this. You are able to perceive and be present with empathy. That is not to say that you’re not apologetic to someone else’s feelings at any point. That is not to say that you don’t have an understanding of what the other person is experiencing. It’s not to say that at all.

It’s to say that you still do not ever make a decision to act or speak based on that other person or your perception of that other person, which is never going to be accurate anyway. Never, to the fullest extent it could ever be, unless you’re so energetically in tune, which we’ve talked about, and I do think that is possible.

So it’s all about understanding that emotional literacy is really, really, really aligning with your best understanding of your own sense of self and choosing to move through the world—to speak and to act and exercise intention—100 percent from that place.

Neff: There is a word that I’ve been thinking about that people hate to hear.

Ashlieya: Accountability?

Neff: Oh my word.

Ashlieya: Accountability, is that what you’re going to say?

Neff: Oh my word, yeah. 

Ashlieya: This is radical accountability.

Neff: It’s accountability.

Ashlieya: That’s what this is. 

Neff: It’s accountability.

Ashlieya: Yes.

Neff: And it’s teaching people accountability, right? Which is so scary for people to do, and they avoid it like the plague. And it’s exactly what you’re talking about. It’s like if we’re so focused outside of ourselves, then we’re not taking accountability, necessarily, for our participation in anything.

Ashlieya: There’s usually—interestingly enough, I have these conversations—there are usually two camps of people, two different groups of people, when you talk about this, as it pertains to that sentiment that you just stated right there—which is something I talk about all the time, because you’re 100 percent right.

There’s the group of people that hear the sentiment pertaining to: I have the accountability, I am solely responsible for the way I view the world, and therefore every single thing that happens to me is within my power to assign meaning to and respond according to what I think or feel is within my best interest. There are people who will go, “Oh no,” and reject that sentiment so completely for whatever reason—fear, not wanting to be accountable, not understanding how, lack of skill sets, all the things.

And then there are people like me, who are like, “I’m in control. Yes! I’m not a victim of my circumstances. Yes!  I get to design and build my own life and existence. I am responsible for my identity.” Nothing that which has ever been projected onto me or encultured into my existence is something I need to keep or own or, you know, continue to just… it’s almost like you have this growth on your body that’s just like, “I don’t really want this here, but I guess it’s part of me.” No, you can cut it off.

Neff: Well, it’s powerful.

Ashlieya: You can go to an identity‑based dermatologist, and they’ll laser it for you. 

Neff: It’s powerful to be accountable. Yeah, no, it really is.

Ashlieya: I think it is.

Neff: Yes. 

Ashlieya: We can get spiritual now because I’m out of the closet. You know, understanding that the way you view yourself is the way you view the world, right? We really do have the entire universe inside of us. Every single thing that we perceive is only that which we can conceive, because it’s made up of what we are.

And when you understand that, there’s nothing to fear, first and foremost. There’s no real threat ever, because we’re always where we should be and we’re always receiving that which we need. Every single moment of every single day, we have everything we need. You just have to choose to see it that way. You have to have the ability to perceive it that way.

So it’s, yeah, it’s a whole thing. But radical accountability, yeah, that’s essentially it. And also, not allowing society and social customs…

Neff: …programming. 

Ashlieya: …and etiquette to dictate that which you must respond to, behave, because that would be inauthentic if it’s not in alignment with your core truth and values.

I really feel if we all just did what we not “should” do in the obligatory sense, but “should” do in order to keep us into our internal alignment and experiencing coherence, our purpose, all the extension of all that we truly are, we would never harm anyone. Malice, any semblance of dissonance, negative energy, doesn’t exist.

Neff: I was going to say, when you talk about our experience teaching kids, when you ask them the right questions—because they’re very intelligent.

Ashlieya: They are, yeah.

Neff: So when you ask them the right questions, they respond and they’re being very honest, right? So you ask them, “Do you want to be… you know, do you want to contribute to something good? Do you want to hurt people?” Do you know what I mean? They give you the answers.

Ashlieya: Well, and I think it’s so much more than that, when you can really be at the child’s level. You can come down to, you know… I mean, I get very playful, I get very, you know, I get really just light‑hearted, and it fills me to be in a room with kids. It really, really does. My energy just, like… I love who I am in that environment.

Neff: I’ve seen it and it’s crazy.

Ashlieya: It’s just… I am high on life when I’m in a room full of kids. So, to be childlike—and it’s not to say that you’re not still a responsible adult, because of course you are. But for me, that degree of status, that sense of entitlement, completely dissipates. And I speak to them simply as the embodiment of that which I would wish for them to become.

Neff: Yes. But it’s all there. 

Ashlieya: I speak to them from the state of the embodiment of all that I would wish for them to become.

Neff: Yes.

Ashlieya: I think that is a huge… just, it gets missed. When you’re addressing a child and you’re instructing them or guiding them or redirecting them, you know, there’s a way to articulate things where they not only understand it, but it appeals, it resonates. And that’s your point.

Neff: One hundred percent. 

Ashlieya: You can speak to them in a way that speaks to their core truth of who they feel is the best version of them.

Neff: Exactly. 

Ashlieya: It’s not an obligatory “These are the rules.” It’s not a “I’m the teacher and you do as I say.” It’s not a “Here are the directions, I’m providing you this step‑by‑step instruction, this is the framework for how to do this, how to act, how to be, how to think.” It’s not that. It’s nothing to do with that.

And that’s where I, you know, we speak about this all the time. In my book, obviously, “Art as the Way to Emotional Literacy,” it speaks about how the creative—the arts, you know, visual and performing arts—are the ideal environment for helping children as well as adults—let’s not forget about the adults, we never forget about the adults—to learn emotional literacy skills, to learn their inner truth, to learn themselves, stripped of all these, you know, again, projections and encultured concepts and old habits, wounds, limiting beliefs, all of that good stuff.

They get to explore themselves, and you can choose to remedy that, to alchemize that, to not take any of that with you that you discovered does not serve. We could be teaching kids this now.

And that is what I really, really, really hope starts to come to fruition. SEL, social–emotional learning, has been in schools for 20 years, over 20 years. And it’s done great things. It has been a benefit. It has absolutely been a benefit. But why stop there? Why stop there?

Social–emotional learning is just an aspect of emotional literacy or emotional intelligence. It’s just a series of components that is a part of it. I really think that if we put more intention in implementing emotional literacy skills into classrooms—into both the day academics as well as after‑school enrichment—as well as start to perpetuate more of a system‑wide, institution‑wide culture, which is the intention, but I personally witnessed is not a thing…

So many schools, it’s not a thing. They claim it’s a part of their school culture, but when it comes to the administrators, the teachers themselves, the heads of districts, they do not practice it. They do not embody it. And I guarantee you most of them don’t even understand how to adequately define it. I personally witnessed this.

Neff: So it does need to start from the top. 

Ashlieya: It has to start from the top down. It needs to be modeled to these kids—modeled—and it’s a very real thing.

Anyway, that’s an extension of my purpose, for sure, for sure. It is a core value of mine to thrive as a human in my humanness. And that’s why I think we’re here, is to thrive as humans.

So everything I write about, everything I talk about, the whole purpose of this podcast is to in some way shine a light on that and contribute that, put that out into the world as the storyteller that I am.

Neff: Absolutely. Yes. 

Ashlieya: So great. So great. That was a really good segment. I really love that.

I want to move on to Builders. I want you to talk more about Builders, and what our programs are, and what we’re aiming to do. And we are doing… Dance Masters as well is doing a school program this summer for homeschool kids. So I want to talk a bit about that and what that looks like for us.

We infuse all of our teachings with our emotional literacy framework. You get to learn all sorts of really cool performing arts modalities—and visual arts as well, it’s not just performing arts—with an intention to develop emotional literacy skills.

And we are an approved vendor for homeschool programs in California. It’s a huge… it covers a lot of territory, but predominantly there’s Calabasas, Agoura Hills, Westlake Village, Thousand Oaks, Newbury Park, all of that good stuff. But we want to expand. We’re looking at Arizona. We’re looking at Arkansas. We’re looking at Texas—specifically Dallas area—and we’re wanting to bring our programs wherever we are wanted, wherever there’s a need, wherever there’s a desire.

We would really love to expand. So if you know of a place, if you know of an institution, be it a school or a community, that you would love to have emotional literacy through different arts‑based modalities for adults, kids, and families, please reach out to us. The email is founder@buildersofabetterworld.org.

We are a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, and we’re looking to build performing‑arts hubs and communities, honestly, all over the freaking world. All over the world.

Neff: Absolutely.

Ashlieya: Okay, what do you have to say on that? Anything?

Neff: Absolutely. So, as you’ve already mentioned, we both have a lot of teaching experience, all levels, all ages. We have seen firsthand the benefit of performing arts in people’s lives, in a very, you could say, superficial way but also in a much more meaningful way.

And, as you have mentioned, it is a part of our purpose—especially Builders of a Better World’s purpose—to address some of those more meaningful aspects of learning performing arts: emotional literacy, all of those things. It does transform people’s lives. There is no question about it. I’ve seen it personally. I’ve lived it personally. And I know you have also yourself.

Ashlieya: Absolutely. You’re a fantastic teacher.

Neff: Thank you.

Ashlieya: Yes. You have a gift for being able to teach dance, and it’s absolutely brilliant. There are many dance teachers in the world. I have taken classes from a lot of different teachers throughout the world—throughout the world, yes, for sure—and you are by far one of the best dance instructors I’ve ever had. It’s very true. You get a little spicy sometimes.

Neff: I can. I can get a little spicy. I can, yes, absolutely.

Ashlieya: So tying this into purpose though, because you have… I don’t want to declare what I think your purpose is. I’m not going to say that for you. But you have a gift with being able to connect with people, and you’re very curious about people’s lives. You are socially a lot more of an extrovert than I am, I would say.

Neff: Yes.

Ashlieya: And it’s an extension of who you are.

Neff: Absolutely.

Ashlieya: How do you think—if it does, maybe it doesn’t—does that connect to your own purpose?

Neff: Absolutely. I think… you know, this is getting a little personal—

Ashlieya: Good. We should. Take a vow of authenticity.

Neff: Yeah…

Ashlieya: We have a vow of authenticity, you can’t say anything that’s not true. Refrain from speaking…

Neff: This is going to get a little personal. 

Ashlieya: Let’s do it.

Neff: In the sense that I’ve had, you know, my own personal… I’ve had moments in my life where, you know, you kind of look around. One of my moments that I remember very vividly is driving on the freeway. I know this sounds really weird, but I was driving on the freeway, and I was like, “There are hundreds of people around me right now, living their own lives.”

And we get so in this bubble of our own existence, you know, that we don’t kind of take that into consideration—our own personal influence, our own, you know, experiences, all of those things. And we’re just in this little place, and we’re like, “There’s hundreds of people around us living their lives the same way we are,” in a sense, you know? And that just kind of stuck with me.

And I think it made a difference in how I started just interacting with people.

Ashlieya: Describe that. When you say “stuck with you,” like, what would be… what are your emotional literacy skills that can help you derive what that feeling was or what that sentiment was? Like, what is the…

Neff: Well, I mean, it starts to… you know, you start talking about empathy, you start talking about sympathy, you start talking about the idea that everyone’s experiences, everyone’s perspective is different. The way they navigate the world is different. Things like that.

So when you do start communicating with people, I think you start listening more. I think you start observing more, instead of just… I don’t know if you’ve ever had a conversation with somebody, and at the end go, “I have no idea what we just talked about.”

Ashlieya: Yes, actually. I will admit that, yes. Oh, I have, I have, yes.

Neff: You know? Where it’s like you just… you went through, like you said, the programmed responses.

Ashlieya: I had an unconscious… I was navigating from this autopilot that meant nothing. There was no significance to the exchange.

Neff: Why do you say hi to people, right? “How are you?” Why do you say, “How are you?” Do you say “How are you?” to really actually know or find out how they are? Or do you say “How are you?” because you actually are interested or care? Or you want to find out, for whatever reason. Do you know what I mean?

Ashlieya: You say, “I’m sorry.” 

Neff: Saying “I’m sorry,” saying whatever. I mean, any interaction whatsoever, it could potentially be what you would consider surfacy… 

Ashlieya: Conditioning.

Neff: …or conditioning or whatever. 

Ashlieya: …lacking of substance and genuine exchange of energy or information.

Neff: So that experience kind of started me thinking more about how I interact with people and the fact that this person that I’m communicating with has feelings, emotions, experiences. It makes me curious. It makes me curious: who are you? What makes you you? What kind of experiences have you had that gives you positive things, or even anxiety, or stress, or whatever? I’m curious, you know?

And then, because I am a teacher—and this is something I’m trying to manage in the most positive, positive way—and that is I may say things like, “Oh, well… I’d like to help.” Let’s just put it that way. I like to help.

Ashlieya: You do like to help.

Neff: Teachers like to help.

Ashlieya: Teachers teach because they like to teach.

Neff: Yeah. So they like to help.

Ashlieya: You think you have knowledge or information or insight or wisdom that is meant to be shared.

Neff: Exactly. 

Ashlieya: Yes. So where were you going with that? Because you cut that one short.

Neff: I’m just saying that through my own personal experiences, especially when it comes to some of the things that you and I have been through, I’ve come to realize that helping is not always helping. Let’s just put it that way.

Ashlieya: Our perceptions of others are limited.

Neff: Yes. 

Ashlieya: And why is that, right? Our perceptions are a reflection of our own orientation to a situation, circumstance, or environment. And because we all have our own unique orientation—and you can define orientation in a variety of different ways—you can speak about it pertaining to one’s ego, which I personally choose to define as, you know, all that I’ve ever experienced or learned in this life as it pertains to being a human. That is my ego.

There’s pros and cons to all that that contributes in my life, right? So it’s important to exercise awareness and intention. And… where was I going with that? We said ego, and then what? Oh, shoot, now I lost it. Where was I going with that?

Neff: You were talking about perceptions.

Ashlieya: Defining your perceptions, thank you so much. So there’s orientation as it pertains to the ego. There’s orientation also as it pertains to your own projected sense of self onto that particular environment, person, or circumstance, right? You can only see that which your ego has learned. You can only perceive that which you can conceive.

So you are the extension of all that you have ever learned. And what you choose to embody is the wisdom, you know, in your practice, in your rituals, and how you navigate your day‑to‑day. And I personally think the highest wisdom, which is all around us all the time—you can call it, it’s an aspect of God, in my opinion, it’s creation, it’s energy, it’s all things.

And to really tune into that requires a… I don’t want to say stripping away, because we are humans for a reason. We are meant to have a human experience, I feel very strongly about that. But there is an attunement that one can achieve from being truly present to a moment and so open to intentionally understand, to intentionally receive from that moment as it’s being presented to you, that can provide, for one, profoundly enlightening experiences, but also the most accurate understanding of what is happening—be it an exchange from another person, again, situation, or environment.

That attunement to energy, to frequency, to being able to turn off your own programmed projection and perception of a situation is a skill set. And I think we can all learn that. 

Neff: It takes practice. 

Ashlieya: I hope to help put that out there as something possible.

You know, when we talk about emotional literacy, when you speak about what you just shared pertaining to your curiosity and being able to receive other people’s stories and really listen, there’s a communication that takes place. There’s an energetic exchange that takes place. And we are so taught to utilize our senses in a situation pertaining to hearing and interpreting tone and phrasing and words, and, you know, we’re able to view body language, our mirror neurons activate and all the things. We have ways of trying to interpret and gather data of what’s being sent our way.

And there’s so much more to a real, genuine exchange of information than the communication skills we are taught. There’s so much more to communication and exchanging information than just the spoken word. Words are symbols, I say it all the time because it’s so true. It’s very important that we self‑define things with intention. We very, very often subconsciously will adapt definitions to words from another situation or circumstance from a connotation point of view as opposed to a literally defined point of view. Words are very powerful.

Anyway, so there’s a lot of areas in which our senses can contribute to misinformation, to misinterpreting information: our connotations of words, our misunderstanding of body language, our not being able to adequately perceive their intended tone of voice. It leads to all sorts of issues. Communication gets spoken about all the time as a primary area in which relationships can have a sense of deficiency, or that’s where contention gets derived from, that’s where conflict gets derived from, is a misunderstanding of intention.

Intention, when embodied, is an energetic frequency. If you are able to tune in, genuinely tune in, to energy and frequency—as we all are, if we just learn how to do so—words aren’t needed. They’re not needed. And you can say, “Well, what is she talking about, telepathy?” I mean, sure. You could call it that. You could call it that—a human‑to‑human interaction.

I personally have had relationships in my life. I have a very significant relationship that I will probably one day write a book about. Actually, it would be a better screenplay. It should be a movie.

Well, I have such a connection with someone where I can sense and feel and I can receive in my body that which she feels in her body. We have this ability. I believe everyone can train themselves. We can develop these skill sets, and arguably, I think it’s more about remembering the skill sets as opposed to adapting new ones or acquiring new ones. I think it’s already inherently a part of what we are made of. We just need to be present with it and exercise that awareness and intention.

So my point with that: there are so many ways to receive information. And I truly hope that it can be an intention for all of us to genuinely try to hear each other and listen, as you just spoke about, because it’s incredibly powerful. And of course, it’s a huge aspect of being able to move through the world in an authentic, very genuine way.

Why participate in a conversation or an exchange of energy or information if it’s really nothing other than what I would perceive to be a waste of time? I’m allergic to small talk. Allergic to small talk. People think I’m way more neurodivergent than I actually am, because I get awkward—so awkward—in small‑group conversations, just because I don’t have the same desire, and it begins to manifest as a lack of patience to do the typical, what would be considered proper social etiquette in playing the “get to know you” game: “Where are you from? What do you do for work?” Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it’s not that I’m not curious about people. I share your curiosity. I could just give two shites about where you were born or what your zodiac sign is. That doesn’t mean anything as far as how I have defined my own personal sense of identity. So I don’t move through the world asking other people about what I would consider to be the more shallow, superficial, inauthentic aspects of their identity.

I think at the core we’re all the same, and it doesn’t really matter where you’re born.

Neff: Yeah, I mean, a lot of what you just said, it’s very interesting because—I don’t know if I can articulate this in the best possible way, and maybe you could repeat if I don’t, you can kind of clarify—but it’s very interesting, because when you have conversation, and you are listening to someone, it may seem like you’re having something that’s external, but you’re not really.

Ashlieya: Exactly, yes.

Neff: You’re actually experiencing it internally.

Ashlieya: Yes.

Neff: Right?

Ashlieya: Mm‑hmm.

Neff: And because of everything that you’ve said—which, again, is my perspective, it’s influencing me, it’s not influencing you, it’s influencing me—then the conversation that we are having is still internal. It’s still here. So it ties everything into, you know, how am I hearing you? How am I hearing you? Does that kind of…

Ashlieya: Yes.

Neff: You know, I mean, it really ties all of that in. 

Ashlieya: There’s a filter. 

Neff: And that is how, like we said, we change, or we build a better world from the inside out.

Ashlieya: Being the example, being the energy, yes, embodying the intention.

Neff: The filter that I create by listening, right, is the filter that can either produce something positive or it can produce something negative. And I think that that’s really what’s important.

I think that, you know, when we talk about what we just talked about—where, you know, I’ve had to go through certain experiences—you could say the same thing 30 times and I won’t get it. I won’t understand it. It’s my perspective. It doesn’t matter, like, how you maybe change the way you said it or you may whatever. But then I have to internalize it through whatever experience—it doesn’t matter what the experience is—and then it starts making sense to me. Right?

I have to do the internalizing, and then it makes sense to me.

Ashlieya: Yes.

Neff: So that’s an inward‑to‑outward process. It’s not an outward‑inward process. I could say, “Say it again, no, say it again, say it again. I missed it that time, say it again. 

Ashlieya: What type of learner are you—kinesthetic, auditory, blah, blah, blah? 

Neff: “Paint a picture, put it on a video.”

Yeah, I can say that over and over again, but until I actually internalize or go through the process of inward to outward, then it won’t really make sense.

Ashlieya: That’s right.

Neff: Right?

Ashlieya: That’s exactly right.

So why would the focus ever be around needing to adapt to a situation based on a particular context or environment? It just… it doesn’t make any sense to me.

Your perception of the context is what makes it what it is. Your perception of the environment is what makes it what it is.

Neff: Exactly. And then you talk about the aspect of tuning into each other and that energy, right? I think, personally—again, here I am, my opinion—but I think personally that you can’t create that until you are harmonious inside. So it doesn’t matter how many times I talk to you. It doesn’t matter how well I listen. Until I actually create that harmony or that resonance or that energy inward, and you do it as well.

So that’s the challenge, isn’t it? Isn’t that the challenge? All of what we’re talking about. Of course, I can build a better world for myself inward to outward. There’s no question about that. What do I have influence over? My energy, my attitude, my thoughts, the words that I say, how I perceive things. I have control over that. 

Ashlieya: That’s all we really have control over.

Neff: If we are to build a better world, then we—everyone—needs to start doing this. Right? I mean, that’s the truth. 

Ashlieya: That’s the mission.

Neff: So if we were to tie all of what we’ve said back to what you asked me, which is, “What is Builders of a Better World about?” It’s about this. It’s about, even though we teach performing arts, which we do, and we do feel like teaching and learning the performing arts is an ideal environment to learn this process—because you have to become self‑aware. That is a bottom line. If you want to learn how to do a performing art, you have to become self‑aware. That’s key. 

Ashlieya: It’s embedded into what it inherently is. 

Neff: Everything about performing arts is self‑awareness.

“What am I doing with this? What am I doing to this song?” It’s all about self‑awareness. So it’s ideal. It’s ideal. But we feel so passionately about this idea of building a better world internally to externally, that when we are teaching this awesome vehicle called performing arts, we do try to apply the understanding of emotional literacy.

It’s easier to go, “Now you’re becoming self‑aware, let’s talk about accountability along with that. Let’s try to apply this other concept, because you’re now becoming more self‑aware. Let’s take that self‑awareness to the next level.”

Ashlieya: Yeah, yeah. And then you can add other aspects to what we would define as emotional literacy skill sets, and you can build different parts of yourself and really find that sense of truly being present, truly exercising intention from your own internal compass or navigation system, to feeling confident and in love with yourself.

You know, in love with yourself. Feeling as though you can positively self‑advocate. If we knew that self‑advocation was not going to harm us, more of us would feel so much more comfortable doing it, especially women. And my argument is that if you do it to the purest extent that you possibly can and you know that you’re embodying a positive intention, and you know you’re exercising awareness over your energy and what you’re saying because you have such a dedication to your intention to be positive in that moment and to be of service—you’re what I consider, I call it “fit for service”—you’re exercising your right to be of service to yourself and the ultimate betterment of the situation.

You can do no wrong. No negative consequence can come from that. Someone else’s interpretation of something is someone else’s interpretation of something. But as we’ve said, and we can continue to say, that’s not what you have control over.

You know, there are ways we can be mindful of how we move through the world for the sake of bettering a situation. But again, if you move with the conviction and the confidence, the assurance, because you know where your heart is and where you’re navigating from, you know you’re making the best choice possible in that situation. That’s all you can do. That is literally the best thing you possibly could do.

Anything that derives from that is, you know, what was meant to be done. And again, I personally believe, because of my spiritual beliefs, it’s going to serve you. It is going to be what is best for you. It is going to be what you needed. It is going to be that which is divinely guided. And that is how I feel about it.

So of course it’s easier for me to say that, because I have an unwavering conviction with regards to how I believe the world works. And I do think that every single thing that happens to me serves my best interest.

I have a mantra that I say to myself all the time: “I am so lucky. I am so blessed. I am so thankful. I am so grateful. Everything always works out for me. The universe is always in service of my highest good.” I say this to myself all the time. All the time.

We wake up, you and I, we have our coffee in the morning—we don’t live together, just throwing that out there—but it feels like we do sometimes because we do spend a lot of time together.

Neff: Yeah, I’ll rent your room. I have no problem with that.

Ashlieya: Which is wonderful. So wonderful. I’m very blessed. Very, very blessed to have you in my life. I am. The dream is to, like, yes, have a property where we both are on the same plot of land, just not in the same house, you know?

But yes, so, you know, we talk about this, and we say things like, “Something really wonderful is going to happen to us today.”

Neff: That’s right.

Ashlieya: “Something really wonderful is going to happen to us today.” And I really believe it. I do. I really believe that.

And, you know, like we talk about it: Builders is an extension of what my personal purpose is, which is to be a positive influence, and that means to directly contribute with the utmost highest intention to every situation and circumstance I ever encounter. It’s me doing everything I can to live as my best self in this human form and this human life. And that, to me, is what thriving is.

You know, I have a commitment to thriving as a human. And the more I can fill my cup, so to speak, the more I can take care of myself, nourish myself, do what I can to transmute and alchemize dissonance, negative energy, that which does not serve… that, to me, is thriving. I’m happy.

I had an experience which I’ll share, because I’m a storyteller. I’m an actress and a writer and a storyteller. That’s how we exchange information as humans. We tell stories.

I did a speaking event in Vegas, and I kind of, you know… it wasn’t a throwaway line, but it definitely wasn’t necessarily in alignment with my talk. I was talking about nervous system—mastering the nervous system as it pertains to influence, influencing a command over your presence pertaining to speaking, right? If you have a regulated nervous system, you’re grounded, you’re in your body, you’re set, you’re confident, you’re in this really wonderful space. You’re navigating from a sense of clarity—clarity being defined as a physiological state, which is really important, and I talk a lot about that. That’s what I was speaking about.

And for some reason, it was appropriate and just organically came out. I said, “I’m happy. I’m a happy person. I’m actually really happy in my life. Like, I’m happy.” And so many women and men came up to me afterwards, but the women were excited about it the most… One especially, she said, “I’ve never heard a woman self‑declare that she was happy.”

And of course, I’m like, “You poor soul, we need to spend more time together.”

Neff: Yeah, you just go, what?

Ashlieya: Wow. Yes. I’m like, what? That was… and so many people were like, “That was really amazing, like, you’re happy.”

Because everybody wants to be happy. That’s what we ultimately want. It’s a state. It’s a state of being. I talk about it all the time. We are chasing a state that we are capable of embodying any moment of every day. You just need to know how to do it. You just need to know how to do it.

So I talk about that, and I’m talking about that now, because it was amazing to me that that resonated with people as such a profound thing for them to witness and hear someone say—was that I’m a happy person.

Neff: That just proves how important the message is, right?

Ashlieya: Oh my word. The more I speak about things and the more I share about things, I receive this profound validation and affirmation that there are people that need to receive it.

I do podcasts all the time now. I’m a guest on so many podcasts at this point, which is lovely and I always… I love it. I love it. I love talking about this. I love talking about all of it. It’s very fulfilling for me because it’s an extension of my purpose, right? We’re getting there, yeah?

Neff: Oh, absolutely.

Ashlieya: So I say things sometimes, and as it’s leaving my mouth and I hear it audibly as I’m speaking it, I’m like, “Gosh, it’s so simple. What a silly thing for me to say. What a simple thing. I’m way over‑generalizing, or I’m making something that is trivial, but I’m declaring it as if it’s this, like, you know, again, something of more substance than what it feels like it would be to myself as I’m perceiving it, as I’m sharing it.”

And yet, always, I get, “Thank you so much for saying that. It’s so great that you said that. Can you expand upon that?” And it’s like, duh, because how often are we listening to our podcast, our audio—not our own podcast, I don’t listen to my own podcast—other people’s podcasts that are on my playlist, you know, where we’re going, “Wow, it’s so simple. I needed to hear that. I needed to hear that.”

It’s so often I find myself listening to someone talk or I’m reading a book or something and someone will say something and I’m like, “Oh, duh.” Either I already knew it and I needed to hear it in that moment, in that time, or it was a really just, really, really profound way of simplifying a concept that I wasn’t able to articulate in such a pure way.

Because sometimes simply stating something, it makes it seem simple, but it’s really actually this very incredible, fantastic revelation for your own sense of self. So it’s… yeah, again, words. Words, and communication and sharing, so powerful, if you’re willing to be open and receive.

Neff: I see this as a teacher all the time as well, and that is context. Context makes a difference. You could hear the same thing in one context as you do in a different one, and it can have an entirely different meaning for you. And I think that’s pretty powerful.

I was reading your book and that kind of happened as well. It was something that I’d heard before in a different perspective or a different context, because we talk about all of it, but I hadn’t applied it to the context that I was reading in your book.

Ashlieya: I love that.

Neff: And so it’s interesting, because then it started having a more universal meaning, because I was able to apply it to more things, if that makes sense—more ideas, more concepts.

Ashlieya: No, I really love that. I mean, I love it purely because you’re talking about deriving any benefit from reading my book, which in and of itself is like… it doesn’t really matter what you say.

Neff: It’s true though, it’s true.

Ashlieya: Yay. But also, I just want to share this last sentiment and then we’ll wrap up this episode. That right there, what you just said, is why social–emotional learning, as it pertains to a sterile, academic, restricted, rigidly navigated environment—like, it could even be a workplace or, again, a school—is not the ideal environment for safe, psychological safe exploration of self.

The ability to feel as though you’re navigating from a state of genuine relationship articulation and awareness to your emotions, rather than following a strategy or a formulated approach that says, “This is the way you must now navigate this exchange.”

You know, there’s that whole sense of this external obligation, in my opinion, directly detracts from your ability to really be present with that inner sense of self‑orientation. And if the context of the way it’s being taught or the way it’s being expressed isn’t what inherently will set you up for success, you’re automatically stunting the outcome.

Neff: Yeah, you would be narrowing where you can perform or explore yourself in any way, because “This is the situation where I can actually do it. None of these other situations I can, but this one I can.”

Ashlieya: Yeah. Anyway, that was excellent. Thank you so much.

Okay. We can wrap up this episode. Thank you so much for being here. “Art as the Way to Emotional Literacy” is my most recent book.

If you feel so called, do check out the I Thrive Academy, ithriveacademy.com. I have a series of blueprints and course offerings as well as workshops that will be posted on there. Right now we have our “Nervous System Mastery” course offering that’s posted on there.

I’m doing a webinar that will be recorded on April 9th—9th of April—pertaining to nervous system mastery. Why am I doing that? Well, because, you know—and I write about this a lot in a multitude of different ways—but we really do need to understand how to build relationships with our physiology. Healthy body, healthy mind. Healthy mind, healthy body.

Our body communicates with emotions, and we, in order to truly understand them and truly use them for the sake of highest good—for them to really be something that we are not subconsciously governed by—it is very important that we build a relationship and understanding of our own bodies. And the nervous system is a physiological response to a psychological perception of something. So it’s really important to understand how to master that.

A lot of people are talking about nervous system regulation, and I guarantee you no one is talking about it the way I do. And if you are, grand—the more the freaking merrier. If I hear one more person say that breathwork is the ultimate cure for regulating the nervous system—no, just kidding. Say that all you want. I enjoy breathwork facilitators. You do you. I don’t think it’s the end‑all be‑all, however. Just my own personal opinion.

So that which I preach is that which I do. So I feel really good about my nervous system. I’m going to tell people what I think about how I’ve gotten where I am, having completely cured my own depression. I no longer experience any semblance of anxiety, and I’m a really happy person, as we’ve discovered in this episode.

Neff: We can have an entire podcast on your journey. I’ve been around for a lot of it, and I’m blown away, personally. Impressive.

Ashlieya: I used to be a very angry, very survival‑based, just little human. I thought my neurodivergence was going to be very limiting in what I could accomplish in my life, and I have a whole new perception and understanding of what neurodivergence even actually is. And yeah, I am no longer governed by my emotions.

I use emotions as a means to learn more about myself, experience the world in all the different ways, because as humans, we should have the fullest human experience we possibly can. And I revel in the good stuff as often as possible, and it’s a good thing.

Neff: I’m impressed that you practice what you preach.

Ashlieya: Thank you.

Neff: And that is an important thing, I think you know, because you’ve done it.

Ashlieya: I’m not a teacher. I am a builder, and a creator, and a storyteller, and an artist.

Okay. Thank you so much for being here. Please give us a subscribe, please follow, please comment. We want to hear from you. And if you ever want to be in touch with us for any reason whatsoever—learn about a program, get in touch with me, reach out to my team, you want to do any collaboration, any cross‑promoting, you simply have a question—send us an email: founder@buildersofabetterworld.org.

You can also find our Instagram page, @buildersofabetterworld, and on Instagram I am @queen.ofthe.mind. Come find me, let’s chat. See you next time. Thank you so much.